Bari Weiss The Age of the Digital StainReal Time with Bill Maher (HBO)
-Let's bring out Bari.
-(CHEERING) She's a staff editor and writer
for the opinion section
of<i> The New York Times,</i> Bari Weiss is back with us. -(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
-BILL: Hey, you. -How are you?
-I'm good, how are you? -Weren't you just here?
-Yeah, just here. You must have done so good -you came back so quickly.
-(BARI CHUCKLES) Uh, but you did do good,
everybody loved you...
-Thank you.
-...And also, you're sort of
on my side about a lot of issues and by this point of the show,
I'm so argued out... -(BARI CHUCKLES)
-...I gotta have somebody
who agrees with me, so... -Okay, I'll pick up the flag.
-No, but I know-- We're-- We're both sort of fighting
the outrage machine, you know, the, uh, the professional
outrage people, and let's just first get out
your, your-- 'Cause I saw you got into
some hot water, for nothing! -I've got into a bunch
of hot water recently, so...
-Okay, but the-- the-- the immigration-- It's
gotten to the point where, like, I don't even know what the fuck
they're mad at anymore. I used to at least go,
"Okay, I get it, I understand, it's ridiculous,
but I get--" Now, I don't even understand
what they're mad at.
The tweet was what? You-- -you were watching the Olympics?
-The tweet was-- Mirai Nagasu. A, uh, person born
in California, -her parents are Japanese
immigrants...
-BILL: Okay. -...Landed a historic
Triple Axel at the Olympics.
-BILL: Oh, right, yes. I tweeted out a video,
along with a lyric from<i> Hamilton</i> that said, "Immigrants,
they get the job done." Now, the actual lyric is,
"We", I got the lyric wrong-- -BILL: How dare you!
-And I was jumped upon.
Now, here's the thing-- -Oh, for fuck's sake.
-Anyone-- I despise xenophobia.
-Anyone who reads my work...
-I despise-- Yes. -...Knows that I love immigrants
and the idea that--
-BILL: It's-- It's-- It's-- -No, hold on. The idea
that I would in any way...
-(BILL CHUCKLES) ...Contribute to a culture
of hostility towards minorities
and immigrants is horrible to me and I feel awful
that anyone heard it that way. Wha-- What is-- What is--
What is your estimation of why there's this fringe
on the left, that attacks people
like you and me, who they must know
are not racist, wha-- Is it just lazy? That it's just too hard
to attack the real villains? -I think that a-- I--
-So you-- you fight...
-Battles way behind enemy lines?
-I think-- I think, A, it's the narcissism
of small differences. Anyone that departs
from woke orthodoxy, -gets a lot more heat
in my opinion...
-Right. ...Than people
on the actual right. I also think that offence-taking
is being weaponized.
It is a root now
to political power. -BILL: Wow.
-Saying that, "I am offended" -is a way of making someone
radioactive.
-BILL: Right. It's a way
of smearing their reputation, of making them a liability, because once you tar
someone as a racist or a misogynist,
or a fascist, or... -Whatever the word
of the day is...
-BILL: Right.
...Um, you know, it's a way of
sort of taking them down a peg, and I'm really concerned... -Yeah.
-...Not about, you know, people that have a public
platform like me or like you, but the downstream effects
of these smearings, because here's what happens
if you are someone who wants to get in
into the public square, and wants to say something
provocative and peep your head out
over the parapet. You are not gonna do that,
you're gonna hesitate
from doing that if you know that
there's a mob awaiting you. And you see what happens,
you know, to very, very, prominent people, for-- for saying sort of
the smallest things.
-It-- Can I say one more thing?
-BILL: Yeah, Matt Damon. -Yeah, no, please. You know...
-Yeah, Matt Damon, I mean, so-- ...Just, husbanditis,
I call it. -So-- Well...
-I'm-- I'm just shutting up.
-(LAUGHTER)
-I really-- I've been revisiting the-- the Philip Roth book,<i>
The Human Stain,</i> okay? <I> The Human Stain,</i>
two sentences on it, it's about a classicist,
at a small liberal arts school, who uses the word "spooks,"
meaning ghosts, -he means it literally.
-BILL: Right. It's taken as a racist slur, and what happens to him
is personal ruin. Now, the irony of this
is he, himself, is a light-skinned black man
who's passing as a Jew. I'm reminded of this because
we sort of live in the age of the digital stain.
-What people are trying to do...
-BILL: Hmm. Is to take even the most
well-intentioned, and anodyne comment intentionally twerk it, and then throw it out through the echo-chamber
of social media, in order to ruin
people's reputations. And I think it's very strange
that we're liv-- We're the most privileged people
in human history, objectively. And yet people are spending
all of their time on Earth, hurling pixels at one another.
-Right-- (CHUCKLES)
-I find it a very, very strange
use of people's time. -Well, it-- I mean,
it's so well said, all of it.
-(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) And... I also think people are
schizophrenic, they're the real people
who talk in private
with their friends and how they conduct themselves -in a setting that's not--
-Yeah. And then, there's like the-- Because everybody is
on social media,
that's like their avatar.
And that person is
super politically correct... -Right.
-...About everything. It's like everybody have
their own publicist. -(CHUCKLES) Right.
-Who's them on social media, -and-- and it's making me crazy.
-But also-- But also it's the opposite.
Also in real life -people are...
Civilized.
-BILL: Right. People say,
"I'm sorry, I didn't mean that, -I-- It's a misunderstanding."
-BILL: Right. But on social media,
they're acting like Torquemadas. -I mean, it's bizarre.
-Right..
-(CHEERING) She's a staff editor and writer
for the opinion section
of<i> The New York Times,</i> Bari Weiss is back with us. -(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
-BILL: Hey, you. -How are you?
-I'm good, how are you? -Weren't you just here?
-Yeah, just here. You must have done so good -you came back so quickly.
-(BARI CHUCKLES) Uh, but you did do good,
everybody loved you...
-Thank you.
-...And also, you're sort of
on my side about a lot of issues and by this point of the show,
I'm so argued out... -(BARI CHUCKLES)
-...I gotta have somebody
who agrees with me, so... -Okay, I'll pick up the flag.
-No, but I know-- We're-- We're both sort of fighting
the outrage machine, you know, the, uh, the professional
outrage people, and let's just first get out
your, your-- 'Cause I saw you got into
some hot water, for nothing! -I've got into a bunch
of hot water recently, so...
-Okay, but the-- the-- the immigration-- It's
gotten to the point where, like, I don't even know what the fuck
they're mad at anymore. I used to at least go,
"Okay, I get it, I understand, it's ridiculous,
but I get--" Now, I don't even understand
what they're mad at.
The tweet was what? You-- -you were watching the Olympics?
-The tweet was-- Mirai Nagasu. A, uh, person born
in California, -her parents are Japanese
immigrants...
-BILL: Okay. -...Landed a historic
Triple Axel at the Olympics.
-BILL: Oh, right, yes. I tweeted out a video,
along with a lyric from<i> Hamilton</i> that said, "Immigrants,
they get the job done." Now, the actual lyric is,
"We", I got the lyric wrong-- -BILL: How dare you!
-And I was jumped upon.
Now, here's the thing-- -Oh, for fuck's sake.
-Anyone-- I despise xenophobia.
-Anyone who reads my work...
-I despise-- Yes. -...Knows that I love immigrants
and the idea that--
-BILL: It's-- It's-- It's-- -No, hold on. The idea
that I would in any way...
-(BILL CHUCKLES) ...Contribute to a culture
of hostility towards minorities
and immigrants is horrible to me and I feel awful
that anyone heard it that way. Wha-- What is-- What is--
What is your estimation of why there's this fringe
on the left, that attacks people
like you and me, who they must know
are not racist, wha-- Is it just lazy? That it's just too hard
to attack the real villains? -I think that a-- I--
-So you-- you fight...
-Battles way behind enemy lines?
-I think-- I think, A, it's the narcissism
of small differences. Anyone that departs
from woke orthodoxy, -gets a lot more heat
in my opinion...
-Right. ...Than people
on the actual right. I also think that offence-taking
is being weaponized.
It is a root now
to political power. -BILL: Wow.
-Saying that, "I am offended" -is a way of making someone
radioactive.
-BILL: Right. It's a way
of smearing their reputation, of making them a liability, because once you tar
someone as a racist or a misogynist,
or a fascist, or... -Whatever the word
of the day is...
-BILL: Right.
...Um, you know, it's a way of
sort of taking them down a peg, and I'm really concerned... -Yeah.
-...Not about, you know, people that have a public
platform like me or like you, but the downstream effects
of these smearings, because here's what happens
if you are someone who wants to get in
into the public square, and wants to say something
provocative and peep your head out
over the parapet. You are not gonna do that,
you're gonna hesitate
from doing that if you know that
there's a mob awaiting you. And you see what happens,
you know, to very, very, prominent people, for-- for saying sort of
the smallest things.
-It-- Can I say one more thing?
-BILL: Yeah, Matt Damon. -Yeah, no, please. You know...
-Yeah, Matt Damon, I mean, so-- ...Just, husbanditis,
I call it. -So-- Well...
-I'm-- I'm just shutting up.
-(LAUGHTER)
-I really-- I've been revisiting the-- the Philip Roth book,<i>
The Human Stain,</i> okay? <I> The Human Stain,</i>
two sentences on it, it's about a classicist,
at a small liberal arts school, who uses the word "spooks,"
meaning ghosts, -he means it literally.
-BILL: Right. It's taken as a racist slur, and what happens to him
is personal ruin. Now, the irony of this
is he, himself, is a light-skinned black man
who's passing as a Jew. I'm reminded of this because
we sort of live in the age of the digital stain.
-What people are trying to do...
-BILL: Hmm. Is to take even the most
well-intentioned, and anodyne comment intentionally twerk it, and then throw it out through the echo-chamber
of social media, in order to ruin
people's reputations. And I think it's very strange
that we're liv-- We're the most privileged people
in human history, objectively. And yet people are spending
all of their time on Earth, hurling pixels at one another.
-Right-- (CHUCKLES)
-I find it a very, very strange
use of people's time. -Well, it-- I mean,
it's so well said, all of it.
-(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) And... I also think people are
schizophrenic, they're the real people
who talk in private
with their friends and how they conduct themselves -in a setting that's not--
-Yeah. And then, there's like the-- Because everybody is
on social media,
that's like their avatar.
And that person is
super politically correct... -Right.
-...About everything. It's like everybody have
their own publicist. -(CHUCKLES) Right.
-Who's them on social media, -and-- and it's making me crazy.
-But also-- But also it's the opposite.
Also in real life -people are...
Civilized.
-BILL: Right. People say,
"I'm sorry, I didn't mean that, -I-- It's a misunderstanding."
-BILL: Right. But on social media,
they're acting like Torquemadas. -I mean, it's bizarre.
-Right..
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